Torture and Why I Believe We Shouldn't Do It


AO's

By Doc in the Box
from the medical department, Section Events
Posted on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 08:24:17 PM EST
Tags: torture, military (all tags)

I posted this over at my regular blog Doc in the Box.

   Not that terrorists don't deserve to be drawn and quartered but as Americans, we can't afford to give up the higher ground.   Every time we press the standards of the Geneva Conventions or stretch the rules of how we can treat prisoners, we lose more of the moral high ground to tell someone else, "Hey, what you are doing is wrong!"  

   Looking at the view of torture from a purely professional standpoint of an enlisted guy on the ground.  Lets toss this question out there, who's going to be our boss in a few years?  This administration isn't always going to be in power.   What if our next President wins by a landslide on an anti-torture platform promising to prosecute every military person who's has broken the Geneva Convention all the way up and down the chain of command?   Even if I found myself doing this sort of thing, the powers that be can't promise up protection in the future.  

   I'm not willing to throw away a career that should last through a couple of Presidencies doing actions that are considered gray.   We really don't get paid enough to be the fall guy for breaking rules that have been laid out in black and white and used for half a century.      

   Ask Senator McCain if he ever forgot what the Vietnamese did to him.  The hurt that they caused will haunt him for the rest of his life, you find the breaking point of a man weather he is innocent or guilty and in some part of him, he's going to be your enemy for the rest of your life.   When I was in high school, I had a substitute teacher who was a POW and every time he saw me come to class, his eyes would flash with what looked like anger for a second then it would go away and you could tell he was working hard just to treat me as a normal student.   I didn't have a clue to what his problem was till one day after class he told me about being a POW and some of the things they did to him.  Me with my obvious Asian background still struck that nerve even though I was born in Arizona and am as American as apple pie.          

   Even though I'm a Sailor most of the people I interact with are Marines, in fact I've spent 9 years of my life working with Marines so you could say I know what I'm talking about.  All Marines who graduate boot camp are given Honor Courage Commitment cards.  This card is a reminder of the values that they are supposed to uphold.   The front of the card has the words in big letters and in small letters a brief simple explanation.  Honor is "integrity, responsibility and accountability", Courage to "Do the right thing, in the right way for the right reasons" and Commitment is "Devotion to the Corps and my fellow Marines".  

The back of the card states this

________is a Marine.

Marines...

1  Obey the Law

2  Lead by Example

3  Respect Themselves and Others

4  Maintain a High Standard of Integrity

5  Support and Defend the Constitution

6  Uphold Special Trust and Confidence

7  Place Faith and Honor Above all Else

8  Honor Fellow Marines, The Corps, Country and Family

Not one place on that card gives them leeway to do something that they might consider morally wrong.   It takes a special type of person to become a Marine, it's no walk in the park, these are regular flawed human beings who are trying to live up to a perfect example, by choice.   Most people join the Marines for a reason, they're trying to live up to some higher standard or principle that they've seen portrayed.  I've noticed that people who join and can't live up to those standards don't last long or longer then one enlistment.

   Marines in general don't lie, cheat or steel, there are bad apples but the environment isn't conductive towards their continued service.  Younger Marines have a harder time living up to these standards but as they age and grow into being a Marine, doing the right thing just becomes natural.   If they see a Marine who's not living up to that standard, they stop them and let out an earful.  After a while it goes against their nature to break rules (that is rules that have to do with HCC, they do break lots of other rules).   Marines don't like the idea of being the bad guy and when someone tells them they need to be the bad guy, it doesn't sit well and it shouldn't.  Torture is evil and every evil deed done by our side has the potential to become a chink in our armor that will breed reasons that the enemy can use and will make the service members with deep-seated high moral codes lose faith in this institution.   Update -- Uncle Jimbo has more

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Tags: torture, military (all tags)
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Torture and Why I Believe We Shouldn't Do It | 7 comments (7 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)
Re: Torture and Why I Believe We Shouldn't Do It (5.00 / 1) (#1)
by Uber Pig on Sat Sep 23, 2006 at 12:58:00 PM EST
Doc,

You write "Not one place on that card gives them leeway to do something that they might consider morally wrong." and that's true.  But what if there's a circumstance where torture is morally right?  If you check the link to what Uncle Jimbo wrote, you'll see that sometimes it is effective and does yield actionable intelligence, as in the case of that Khalid Mohammed who spilled after taking a water boarding.

I think we've taken some important steps recently in formulating a workable policy on "torture" including definitions and when its use is acceptable.  But I think it's useful for smaller units to be granted wide discretion, especially in the immediate aftermath of battle.  Such methods should be focused and have a specific purpose, ideally -- and they should not be videotaped, lest the prisoners try to claim something happened off-camera.  

If a Marine or someone else at the tip of this country's spear clears an objective and sees his comrades wounded or killed in the process, and comes across an enemy combatant, recently surrendered, who the Marine then butt-strokes repeatedly and kicks in the nuts, can you really hold the Marine to account?  I think not.  I would hope he could control himself, but that's a lot to expect from someone under that kind of stress.  And what's the difference between that and torture?

-- Uber Pig  

"Under peaceful conditions, the warlike man attacks himself." - Friedrich Nietzsche

Re: Torture and Why I Believe We Shouldn't Do It (5.00 / 1) (#2)
by Aleista on Sun Sep 24, 2006 at 12:26:44 AM EST

I'm not sure how reference to the Geneva Conventions is relevant in this discussion. It is a TREATY mutually agreed upon by the signators, not the TEN COMMANDMENTS arbitrarily given by God for us to obey. I keep hearing it referred to as though we are somehow Constitutionally required to allow Geneva Conventions protections and protocols to everyone on the planet, under every circumstance, no matter what...or our "immortal souls" are at risk.

It is simply not true, no matter how badly the Left (or even the nancy boys on the Supreme Court) wish it to be. It is no more and no less than a contract. We signed a contract with certain other countries to observe certain rules of war. To those countries, based on our mutual agreement, we owe behavior in conformity to the requirements of the contract.

We owe no such behavior to those with whom we have no contract. And even among those who are party to it, when they breach it by their behavior, we are no longer bound by it.

If you'll forgive me, my priority is the survival of my country, my people, my culture. I'll worry about my immortal soul once I've got that squared away.

We need to do WHATEVER it takes to win. Because losing is not an option.

Sometimes good people have to do bad things, because circumstances demand it. That does not change them into bad people. And when circumstances relent, good people will stop doing bad things.

THAT's the difference between us and them.

Re: Torture and Why I Believe We Shouldn't Do It (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by Doc in the Box on Sun Sep 24, 2006 at 11:13:53 PM EST
Torture shouldn't be an option for the enlisted guy, let the spooks who get paid the big bucks to be evil and make those kinds of decisions.  I can't imagine a law that the government could write that would give us lowly enlisted guys legal protection after the fact.  It's one thing to take someone out who's a threat or in battle field conditions but having someone who's been locked in a cell for months and months and devising different ways to break him?  It's the difference between first degree murder and manslaughter.  I'm sure we have many enlisted guys (in fact I could count off many on all of my fingers and toes) who would love to go at these A-holes with a set of pliers and a torch but that doesn't it make it right.  

There are only a few hundred top suspects, why not put a camera on each one of them 24/7.  They don't even have to know, we can even tell them that we don't want anyone to know what we're doing to them.  And when we do get good intelligence that does pan out and that we use publicly, hand over those clips to the media of them ratting out their buddies.  When we do let them go and they tell crazy stories about what we did to them, there will be proof of what we didn't do.  Terrorists need to be turned into a world embarrassment, after intelligence comes out about terrorists who succeed, who they are, a bomb should be dropped on their family home.  They might be willing to die, but who's willing to give up the life of their family?  

Sean
from
Doc in the Box
Somewhat Slacker Corpsman of Marines

Torture and Why I Believe We Shouldn't Do It | 7 comments (7 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
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